The Fintech Coffee Break – Jonas Gross, The Digital Euro Association

Hi guys, welcome to the Fintech Coffee Break. I’m your host Isabelle Castro. This week I sat down with Jonas Gross, chairman of the Digital Euro Association.

CBDCs are a touchy subject, sparking many opinions and concerns. The European Commission is making significant headway with the exploration of a digital Euro, recently publishing a proposal for regulation. The big decision on whether they will take the investigation further will be made in October.

I spoke to Jonas about the recent developments, what he thought of them, and some of the ongoing concerns around CBDCs.

Isabelle Castro 0:40

Hi, Jonas. How are you today?

Jonas Gross 0:43
Hi, Isabelle. Very well. Thanks for the invite. Looking forward to the discussion.

Isabelle Castro 0:47
Well, I’m really looking for I wanted you on the show for so long. And I’m really glad that we’ve finally got to do this.

Jonas Gross 0:54
Yeah, you really tried harder than now we could make it work.

Isabelle Castro 0:59
Yeah, it took a lot took well. Okay, so to begin with what gets you up in the morning, Jonas?

jonas grossjonas gross
Jonas Gross, chairman of the Digital Euro Association

Jonas Gross 1:08
Oh, well, I a lot. I mean, it’s basically you know, that’s, it’s just so much interesting stuff going on. Like, of course, you know, personally, I’d like to grow up into some sports. But of course, also, business topic wise, there’s just so much going on. So I’m normally really not the person that just you know, lies there homeowning, but really just gets up. And that’s it gets things done. And yeah, I think one of these things are just digital currencies, which we will talk about today for sure.

Isabelle Castro 1:35
Yes, I’m very much looking forward to talking about that. Before we do, though, tell me about you. Tell me about your journey to the digital Euro Association?

Jonas Gross 1:46
Yeah. Well, I remember it was, let me think when was it I mean, it was it was during my master’s studies, like five, six years ago. And I always knew, you know, I want to do some kind of academic research on some monetary policy related topics. And I always knew I wanted to, you know, do some academic work in terms of my PhD in this context. And I thought about in the beginning about, hey, I want to do more on the monetary policy stuff. But I’ve just got so excited with digital currencies. So and this is also why when I first went, or you know, approached CBDCs, which was four years ago, when I started my PhD thesis. So I would say, I wouldn’t say before, it was cool, because some people wouldn’t consider it cool. But let’s say before it was popular, or at least before people talked about it. So I dedicated lots of, you know, the research work on aspects like privacy, what a CBC mean for the financial sector. So really looking for the academic and also mathematical sides, and also technologic, side to this topic. Yeah. And during my PhD thesis, I did some stuff on the side, I work for the Frankfurt School blockchain Centre in Frankfurt, so really full time on blockchain and digital currency stuff. Yeah, and one, one part of that was also the digital Euro association. So basically, I think it was two and a half years ago, where myself and Philip Santana, my former boss at the Frankfurt School, came up with the idea of establishing a think tank around the digital Euro. And not just the euro, but also CBDCs and stable coins on a global basis. Because we have seen, you know, people talk so much around these topics, digital currencies, and don’t mean the same things are out different having different, you know, inflammation levels, so some asymmetry is going on. And we thought, you know, it needs a think tank in this regard. And this is what we basically set up with a focus on on Europe, but we also talking to lots of central banks outside. So I’m just, for example, going to some Asia, Asian countries in the summer to talk about and to support on CBC design choices. And, for example, have a collaboration with the digital pound foundation as well, in the UK, so heavily engaged and connected with like, yeah, lots of different central banks. And, you know, just try to contribute, basically, to a CBC that benefits society that is kind of, you know, the mission, I will see for the future, your association, and also I’m personally, you know, maybe like getting up in the morning as one part of it.

Isabelle Castro 4:01
Nice, nice. Okay. And do you find that kind of governments are engaging with associations, like the digital digital Euro Association?

Jonas Gross 4:12
Well, I can tell you from our experience they are. So I think I also talked in the last four to five years to 40 to 50 central banks, so there was really a high interest, I can also tell you that there’s different, you know, level of interest in talking to us. So there are some central banks that are super open, read every paper want to talk about every aspect, kind of, and they are central banks that are not that open, but that’s just you know, like normal, depending on differences also in you know, within these organisations, maybe also on the topics we are focusing on, but general generally we are really happy because we are more and more taking serious as like a real important, you know, think tank to talk to when it’s about CBC design. So we also talk to the European parties that design the CBC on a political basis as well. And yeah, it’s just you know, a lot of a lot of fun and very interesting to talk to such institutions and also support, of course on into some design inputs, because, yeah, we are in the space for quite a while. So I guess we have something to say about specific aspects of cbdc design.

Isabelle Castro 5:10
Yeah, no, absolutely. Have you found that Europe is quite open to this, talking to you? Well,

Jonas Gross 5:16
yeah, well, I think, I mean, we have been invited to a lot of different hearings, also public hearings on the digital euros, for example. And by the European Economic and Social Committee last year, we are talking to some data protection agencies also just recently recorded a podcast with the EU, you will call your motion also to the regulatory proposal. So I would say that that openness is generally there. But of course, also depends on the institution you are talking to. So not everyone is, you know, very open or very, very intransparent are very close. But on average, I’m very happy and satisfied with you know, the open doors we are getting.

Isabelle Castro 5:53
Okay, cool. And where are we right now with the digital Euro development? Would you say?

Jonas Gross 6:00
Yeah, so currently, we are still in the investigation phase. So what the ECB did is, in October 2021, they started to look deeper into the topic of issuing potentially issuing an own CBC, which is kind of you know, what we refer today here as the digital Euro, this investigation phase, it has a length of two years. So it will finish in October this year. And this is really, you know, about preparatory work. So which use cases Canada address, how can it be designed? How can it be distributed? How are transactions settled, you know, that’s all within this, this work, which is mainly done by the ECB and other and other eurosystem central banks. And in autumn, so probably October this year, the ECB Governing Council, so that decision making body will basically decide if the if it should be preceded to the next stage, which is kind of then the developing stage. So where it’s really about, you know, different tech setups, checking different technologies, how do they perform which technology to use, going deeper into the technical and the exact design elements, this is where we are heading in October, and so approximately October, at least an autumn, some point in time. And additionally, of course, it’s not just the ECB looking into this topic. So it’s kind of like all the companies or the other banks, etc. And also the European Commission, which just recently, two weeks ago, basically published the regular regulatory proposal for the digital Euro. So basically, about, you know, how the commission from a very broad perspective would design a digital euro and how this can be embedded into European regulation, because, of course, it needs to be regulated, somehow it cannot, you know, be outside regulation. So this is why this was a really important milestone also, in within this, you know, first phase of the digital Euro. And yeah, I’m sure now the process will continue for quite a while on, on the political discourse, because now also other kinds of entities like the parliament are going in, etc. So we will see how the final proposal looks like, but this is at least where we currently stand.

Isabelle Castro 8:04
Okay. And I mean, you did a few blog posts on this regulatory proposal. Maybe tell me a bit more, and our listeners a little bit more about what was in that proposal? And then I’ve got some questions about what you’ve said about it.

Jonas Gross 8:21
Yeah, sounds good. So I was really looking forward to this proposal, because we knew for quite a while that it was coming. It was also delayed at once, I think for one month, but happy that this canal got published before the summer break, so that you know all all stakeholders also, in entities think tanks also, as our JIRA association can comment on this proposal. And what this basically did is it really gave a very broad perspective from the EU Commission, how the digital Euro should be set up. So you know, one example, for example is that it said that the digital role should be should be available for primarily European citizens, companies and tourists for free, and it should be legal tender, so as cash, you know, kind of companies are kind of are forced to accept it. So it’s like an alternative payment method you can use, for example, and that’s like one thing. We can, I think, go very deep into lots of different design elements be there. It’s like not remunerated. So a zero interest rate, like for cash. Privacy is a very important topic. I think we will double down on that. Yeah. And this was just very interesting to see, I think, on my blog post or summarise the tea, the 10 key heel insights from my perspective, but this was the some of the most important ones. And I’m sure we will talk about them even more now, when we double down.

Isabelle Castro 9:35
Yeah. So yeah, I really want to focus on the privacy aspect, because I’ve read your blog post that focused a lot on the privacy apps aspect. Why do you think it’s such a big part of the development of a cbdc? Like the digital year?

Jonas Gross 9:53
I think this goes back actually for Europe at least two years ago, where the ECB asked has a public consultation in places asked the Czech Republic which features should adventure Euro have. So what are from a citizen perspective, the most important features and here, privacy was actually ranked number one, even higher than security, which is for me kind of a no brainer, right? Because it doesn’t want a payment system to be secure. Maybe this was also too obvious, but privacy was a positive one. And from this point onwards, ECB said that privacy will be a priority, which I think is generally a good thing. Why I’m personally really interested in this topic is because also as part of my PhD thesis, we wrote a paper two years ago how to bring cash like privacy, intrusive etc. So what this means is basically how you can have the exact same same privacy for cash, which is basically complete anonymity, specific until specific monetary limits when no party can access or see what you bought, like no bank, no central bank, no government, nobody. And then we showed how this is feasible. In the CBC context, there are, of course, more variants than the one we proposed. But this is just why I personally am very interested and follow this privacy discussion. Because from my perspective, privacy really needs to be considered very seriously. And the issue with privacy is about that. There is no like legal definition for privacy, you know, so people think about different things, when you say privacy, and for some, it’s just yeah, we are compliant with the data privacy standards, we promise you not to sell your data, that’s kind of privacy. But for me, it’s very often or from my perspective, for additional Euro, it really needs more. So it needs privacy, we’re down where I don’t need to trust somebody that is not selling the data, right. So really enforced by code or by cryptography or something like that. Because ultimately, this CBC needs to convince the citizens that is it is really private, and shouldn’t rely on trust. And this is why I think this is just massively important. Yeah, and also, in particular, in Europe, and in Germany, where people like myself, I still mostly paying with cash. Yeah, and I think this is just a very important aspects. And maybe as a last point to this is also people fear that I mean, yeah, and I think it’s not really justified. But still, they fear that this could be the first step to get rid of cash, so that people introduce a CBC. And then at one point in time, the central bank says, Now cash is gone. So you have to use the CBC, I don’t think that this will happen. But there is the realistic scenario, that there is a market process like in countries like Sweden, or China, where people just don’t want to use cash anymore, because it’s maybe inconvenient, you need to have a wallet. And then also merchants don’t accept it anymore. And then less people use it. So like kind of this negative spiral. And for this setup, you need a cbdc, that provides a very high degree of privacy, because otherwise, the privacy of payments will kind of be gone in a few decades. Because if you pay with credit cards, Apple pay Google Pay, etc. That’s not at least the privacy I would like to have for my payments. Of course, everybody can, you know, decide this by oneself. But for me, I think it always needs at least one form of money, where you are really, really private and where your privacy is seriously protected.

Isabelle Castro 13:02
They in this proposal, they kind of outlined the different levels of privacy offline online, and all that kind of stuff. But how would these different levels work? Maybe give a kind of outline of what was actually outlined in the proposal? And yeah, how would they work? Yeah.

Jonas Gross 13:22
So it was said that there will be basically as you said, like two different payment methods, if you want within the Digital Euro. So you have the one alternative you can pay online. So just you know, today, when you go to Amazon, you buy something in ecommerce and then charge just you can add your digital Euro wallet, and then you can pay with the euro. That’s one way. And the second way is you can pay offline. The other case would be you know, for example, I meet you in person and I want to send you to the euro, I just have my phone on yours, for example. And then money is transacted or you go to a supermarket and buy something so important for this offline, you need to be near geographic distance, otherwise, it does not work. So that’s like the two adjectives you can have for digital Euro payments, at least according to this proposal. And they differ substantially in terms of privacy. So the EU Commission said in the proposal that the for these offline payments, that this will be similar privacy as for cash, so basically, you know, just from phone to phone, peer to peer, without, you know, my bank knowing a lot about that they actually said that the bank knows just as much as for cash today. So remember, if you, for example, deposit cash or withdraw cash, that’s something the bank knows, but the bank doesn’t know where you spend your cash, for example, they say this should be different. It should be similar for this offline variant. But for the online variant, it’s very similar to online payments, today’s in terms of privacy, so there will be you know, no substantial. I mean, no privacy protections too much because again, different definition, but it will not be as similar privacy as cash. It will be rather the privacy we have today for you know bank transfers, credit card payments, etc. Where some kind of data are collected by these included banks or payment service providers.

Isabelle Castro 15:03
I guess if this kind of system is actually developed how they say it might, it would offer even a better alternative to what we have now, because as you said, the payment trends are going more online, people are paying less with cash, and the online providers call card issuers and all that because they have access to those already. Which is why when I read the stat that number one concern was privacy. I was quite surprised, actually, because we’re not currently in private network, right? I mean, maybe in Germany, where they’re paying with cash a bit more is different. But we Yeah.

Jonas Gross 15:56
And there’s, there’s also this typical privacy paradox where people always say, you know, if you ask people to your one privacy, probably nobody says no, but in reality, they, you know, still post, you know, holiday pictures on Instagram, you know, show send very private messages on WhatsApp or others. So, you know, that’s not just about WhatsApp, Instagram, but just just in general that people often say they want to privacy, one want to have privacy, but in the end, they are not, they are, you know, preferring other attributes like convenience, or, you know, just just other values. So I think that’s, that’s very true. And I would also say that, even if we have a digital Euro, that has a very high degree of privacy, that this will not convince everybody to use it. Because a some people just don’t care. And B, we do have cash today, right, which is like still the best in terms of privacy. And I mean, I also think that the euro will definitely not be better than cash, maybe it comes close to cash. But we need more data on that to really evaluate this. But yeah, I think, again, this this for me, personally, and maybe also a little bit biassed as a German that loves to pay with cash. But I really don’t want to live in a world where at one point in time, maybe the market is not heavily using cash anymore in 234 decades, I don’t know. And we’re also my privacy there, it’s not not possible to have a payment where no, you know, when nobody sees my payment data, this is just something I think it’s not desirable for for Science Society, maybe some people do. But this is why I think this, you know, close to cash, let’s say or cash, like privacy is really needed in the context of CBDCs. From my perspective, because, as you mentioned, the private sector did not provide, you know, kind of anonymous payment methods to date, because there are good reasons to, you know, distribute data, analyse data. So there was just no incentive. And I would say this is kind of a market failure in the digital context where a CBC could basically help out.

Isabelle Castro 17:48
Okay. But another thing if they implement a private system now, I mean, I’ve read concerns that people are worried that even if it’s private now, it might change in the future, and they might update it. And are there any provisions to stop this? In the recent proposal? Because it seems like they could do that, once it’s implemented? They could do something like that right.

Jonas Gross 18:18
Now, that’s a great question. And I actually asked the exact same question to somebody at the European Commission, because that was also my concern. And this is very, very often brought forth from opponents. And I understand that and the response basically, was that all what we talked about, you know, with offline online, assuming this goes through the political process, and you know, the parliament, the council, say yes, and approve this, then this will enter into force. So it’s a European law. So this means if you want to change this, for whatever reason, say, more privacy in five years or less privacy, you need to change the European law, right. And there is a standard process for that. So it will not be the ECB saying from today to tomorrow. We want to have less privacy. So which has changed the system. That’s not how it works, but it needs a political process for that. And at least from my perspective, that’s like, better than if you’re not just one institution has the power to change this kind of overnight. But still, we don’t know what happens politically, you know, some some stuff has happened in recent years where, you know, nobody had foreseen so we don’t know. But yeah, that’s at least a risk, which cannot be really fully, you know, addressed in terms of CBC. It’s just a political process. And you’d also potentially change requests and changes needs to follow the political process for this.

Isabelle Castro 19:35
Okay. And so far, are you I guess, are you happy with how they are approaching this? I know that they’ve got to say certain things to be kind of politically correct and all that crap, but are they actually doing what they say? Or is there kind of a mismatch?

Jonas Gross 19:55
So I think it definitely needs more detail to really say that this is good or bad. What has been proposed because we don’t see any, you know, data flow and what exactly is shared, for example, I’ve also heard that there will be limits, not just on the cbdc, but also on this offline payments, which are more privacy preserving. So the question is, what is the limit? Right? Is it 50 euros a month? Is it 20,000 a day. And this, of course, has strong impact on on the design and also on the usability. So I think it’s a good step that that is said that, at least for this offline, it should be privacy that is similar to cash, but it really needs more details, and also lots of discussions, I guess, on this limit for this offline payments, because this ultimately determines how private the ditch the euro, in the end really is.

Isabelle Castro 20:43
Okay. And there’s this other aspect, which I mean, it’s recently come into at least my consciousness. Because in the UK, it might have been fake news. But there was something that came out that said, the digital pound might be programmed to control certain aspects of spending. And I think it was, I can’t remember what the parameters were. But there was a lot of programming and a lot of control involved in this kind of report. I mean, is, is it in their interest to even do this? And if it is, in the interest, what interests would those be? And why would they even try to control spending? I mean, yeah, so

Jonas Gross 21:40
I also read this, this headline. But I also read that the Bank of England is now focusing on on privacy and on zero knowledge proofs, in particular with a provider and identity. So for me, this was positive news. But then I read this headline on now, you know, you could be restricted to by Ico like that you’re not allowed to buy Ico if you are, you know, not 18, or you know, or even older than 18. But I don’t know, whatever. I mean, whatever setup you’re not allowed, so I really don’t, yeah, I think that was a little bit too much in terms of the headline, but people read the article, so for the author, maybe worth it. But coming back to the question on on programmability. So the case for the euro area is pretty easy. programmability of money is ruled out. So this means there will be no digital Euro where it’s just allowed to be spent for good purposes, whoever determines what is good, that will just not happen. But the second thing, and this is also what you always need to differentiate is like probability of money versus programmability of payments. So programmability of payments is really more, you know, maybe leveraging innovative technologies like blockchains, smart contracts to automate to execute specific new functions, right to address new use cases we didn’t address. And this is something which is in scope. So that’s not ruled out, it’s really just the programmability of money. And this is also additional Euro should be used for such use cases, that’s at least what it says how this will look like exactly, is still open, let’s say, because the digital euro, the technology stack is not yet known. From my perspective, my feeling is that it will not be based on a DLT. But not decided so could be wrong. But what the ECB has also been saying is that for this innovative use cases, the ECB will not address them all. But they just want to want to build out the basic payment infrastructure, and then have PSPs like banks coming in to provide value added services, how it’s called. And here, for example, you know, they could say, you know, oh, we bring the stitch Euro here on a chain and make it available for IoT machine to machine payments, you name it. So this is something the ECB primarily leaves over to the private sector, to you know, pastured innovation, because they say, you know, that’s not their mandate, which I also understand, because that’s really not their mandate to drive innovation in this regard.

Isabelle Castro 24:05
Okay, well, that sounds positive. What’s your outlook for the digital Euro? Whether it be implemented? What’s going to happen in October? I know, it’s all speculation at this point, but you must have a view of where it’s going.

Jonas Gross 24:22
Yeah, so my feeling is and again, we don’t know yet. So it’s a lot of speculating on my side, but my feeling is that in October, it will be said that the digital that we will enter the developing phase of the digital Euro, so that as I said, in the next step, you know, there is really double down on technology choices on concrete design, what does this mean for technology etc. So I think that this will, this will happen in autumn then? I mean, we are in 2023, then I would say it needs needs at least three years, probably even more. So I would say three to five until we have a cbdc Again, I don’t know but this is That’s my feeling because it’s also such a political topic. And China’s stepping ahead. Other countries are stepping ahead that I think that Europe is also just wants to step ahead or not maybe ahead, but follow them in this regard. So this is what I what I would expect in terms of adoption. For me, it’s really, really hard to say, because I’m always saying that we do have lots of different payment methods in Europe already, right. So again, if you want to do want to preserve your privacy, like myself, you can pay with cash, if you like, convenience, don’t want to carry away, carry your wallet with you. You can use Apple Pay, you can use credit cards, bank cards, PayPal, you name it, so many different alternatives. And this is also why I’m often often, you know, focusing on why am I focusing on the privacy aspect, because this is something as I mentioned, we don’t have in the digital space today. So this really cash like privacy. So this can be kind of a USP for a digit Euro. But as you mentioned, this will not lead to the situation that everybody will use it. And it definitely needs further value propositions for that. So I think it’s again, a good thing also that the Euro can work online and offline. According to the proposal, we don’t have such a form of money yet, right? Because online or online, cash just works offline. That’s, again, another USP. But I think it needs more to be honest, because that’s like two differentiations regarding other forms of money, but I don’t think that based on these two, you know, citizens will download the new app, and we’ll just use it, because they wanted to try out new things. So I think it needs more. And what this more can be this is really something you know, where Yeah, more communication needs to come out. And various central banks be a little bit more clear on the use cases and the benefits they want to want to provide with a digital euro cbdc.

Isabelle Castro 26:42
Okay, so and this will be kind of more developed after October once they make this decision of whether they’re gonna develop it further. Right.

Jonas Gross 26:51
I hope so. Yes. I mean, I was kind of expecting a little bit more clarity on the use case and benefits in the Investigation Phase, because I think always, you know, and I mean, notice from just, you know, investor pitches on your first slide you do you describe your problem. On the second, you describe the solution. And I think that the ECB describe the problem from a central bank perspective, which I think makes a lot of sense having an own payment system, you know, want to, you know, preserve the role of central bank money in times where cash is losing an importance, I totally understand that. But I’m not sure if the, you know, if it’s if it’s user centric enough. So the question should also be, what does the user have from paying with it? And this is, I think, something which really needs more elaboration on and I hope that this happens as soon as possible, because it’s kind of crucial for the the Giro design, because first you need to be to be clear on the, you know, on the benefits on the go to market strategy before you decide on the technology. So yeah, hopefully we see this very soon.

Isabelle Castro 27:48
Yeah, I hope so, too. I hope so, too. Yeah, I know that in other CBDCs around the world, they have come up against issues because of the usability aspect. So that’s hope that they do come up with a proposal for that soon.

Jonas Gross 28:03
And maybe as one last comment is about there was also one cbdc, basically back 30 years ago in Finland. So the event cbdc. Not a lot of people know about that. And it was actually active for a few years. But it was not continued. Because people didn’t use it. So we do have some examples from the past, what we should we should look into and see what we can learn from these initiatives. Because if we don’t look at the users, and why they should use it, this could really also lead to the situation that the deputy was here one day, and just you know, a bunch of people use it, and that it’s like also reputational risk for the ECB in the end. So I think we have some data points, but definitely need to look into them in more detail to really provide a Euro that has some benefits or some differentiations compared to existing forms of money.

Isabelle Castro 28:50
Yeah, because that was the issue with the digital Yuan. Right. They launched the pilot, and no one was really using it. Right. That was recent.

Jonas Gross 29:01
Yeah. And I mean, and this holds for other countries, you know, like, as well, as you mentioned, like, like the Bahamas, or wherever you are Nigeria where they are further in the cbdc. Debate, because also here, people didn’t really know why to use it. So they didn’t use it. So this is, again, also some some insights we should consider in Europe and other countries, of course, as well. This holds similarily for the UK when designing a cbdc.

Isabelle Castro 29:23
Okay, cool. All right. Well, I will move on to your closing questions. A piece of advice that you’ve been given that you would give to someone else, it can be about anything, career related, non career related, whatever.

Jonas Gross 29:41
Read question, I think it’s always important to challenge things. So whenever you hear something, you read something not just take this for granted. But think about it, if it makes sense and talk to people that might know if it makes sense. And I think this can you know, this applies for kind of everything in life, but also to cbdc. So just if you read one head line which, you know, doesn’t make sense to you or maybe does maybe doesn’t think about it, ask some people, and then really look into it and always, you know, be open. And don’t be too narrow minded when it comes to specific aspects also related to CBDCs, for example,

Isabelle Castro 30:15
I think that’s really important, especially in this day and age where there is a lot of fake news. Right, your curveball question. If we eventually get off the earth and go to a new planet, and you were in charge of making the new civilization, which three people would you bring with you? To do that?

Jonas Gross 30:37
Wow. That’s, that’s really a challenging one. So, definitely, you know, definitely, like family, close friends. And I guess like, I would consider this like two class of like, people you announced, I would say, one is family one is fine. And then probably one one other smart person from my business environment, which I know I can work with a lot, and it’s just very creative and knows knows a lot, that then we could, you know, figure out what to do on this lonely on this on this planet? And how we can you know, I don’t know, bring life there or whatever. So I think that’s like a mixture. I would go there. And I, you know, I haven’t been prepared for this question. So

Isabelle Castro 31:17
yeah, exactly. It’s a curveball question. So it’s a difficult one to answer. Okay. I like your answer is a good one. How can people get a hold of you? Or even just the digital your association?

Jonas Gross 31:32
Yeah, so definitely follow me on LinkedIn and Twitter if you want to be up to date, because I’m really posting a lot also relaunched my website, which is just my name dot info. We also have a blog, which I where I recently, and very often post some stuff. That’s definitely something if you want to be kept up to date on regarding CBDCs, but also crypto and stable coins. So I’m not just looking into CBDCs I think crypto and stable coins are equally important. So this is definitely not just one topic I’m addressing. And for the digital Euro Association, very similar. We are also very active on LinkedIn, we have an own podcast where we, for example, talk about, you know, specific news, on demands, we have lots of events, social social media is definitely a good idea. But we also have a newsletter. So this is also something where people can subscribe and then get I think, once a week, the most important information from the digital money space from us directly into the inbox.

Isabelle Castro 32:24
Okay, cool. Thank you so much. Thank you for coming on. I’ve really enjoyed our conversation. And I think I am a lot more enlightened now about where the digital euro is. Thank you

Jonas Gross 32:36
very much for having me.

Isabelle Castro 32:37
Thank you. Have a good day. Thank you. As always, you can reach out and chat with me on my personal LinkedIn or Twitter @izycastrowrites. But for access to great daily content, check out Fintech Nexus on LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook, or Instagram. You can also sign up for our daily newsletter brand new structure inbox for more fintech podcast fun, check out the website website, where you can find more fascinating conversations hosted by Peter Renton. That’s it from me.

Until next time, enjoy your downtime.

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